knife advice

[Shinken]

During my time as a hobbyist knife maker I have noticed a lot of misleading as to what’s what when it comes to knives.

I think it is understandable as a lot of what is written in books and on the web is based on the writers’ preference rather than the truth about the type of tool. And sometimes it is a hypothetical basis that when put to the test does not hold up. Some of it is even bad experience of a poorly manufactured tool that puts people of that kind of tool for good.

I will attempt to use quotes from well respected knife makers where I find it necessary.

First up is using knives to make sparks from fire steels. Two things go wrong here. Firstly people refer to ferrocium rods as fire steels.

A fire steelis a piece of hard carbon steel that you strike flint against to produce sparks. if you have a carbon steel knife then your knife can be used instead of the steel to produce sparks with flint. This does not work with stainless knives.

Ferrocium or "Ferro" rods are alloyed metals which when scraped with something hard and sharp produce sparks. It does not matter what you use as long as it is hard with a square edge capable of shaving the rod. If you use your knife it does not matter if it is stainless or carbon. (the spine just needs for be hard and square)


Second misconception = tangs.

I often hear that a knife must be full tang to be strong.

I think this misconception comes from bad experience of poorly made partial tangs and an imagined "it must be stronger because there is more metal"

As a hobbyist knife maker I have to say I have seen more well made full tangs fail than well made partial tangs, why?


On a full tang there is more exposed metal where the handle slabs meet the tang. If that area gets damaged or wet for a long period of time then moisture can get in. What’s more if you do get a slight lifting the glue seal tends to be ruined.

Any flex in a full tang handle will result in the scale lifting, after a period of time.
So to counteract this the steel tends to be thicker to limit the amount of flex in the tang, they also don't tend to have the tang spring tempered (which makes it less likely to snap under force) because more movement as said above helps the scale to lift.

So to summarize weakness in full tang is the scale lifting, Solution is thicker steel and harder less flexible tang.


Stick tang's tend to fail mostly if they are made poorly. If bolster has a poor fit. but we can ignore this because that is common to both full tang and stick tang. we are talking about well made tools.

Second area a stick tang tends to fail is the transition between the blade and tang snapping. I have never seen this unless the steel had a large grain structure, the tang was too hard, the tang was too thin, or the transition of the tang to blade was too square. Again all these things are due to poorly thought out and made tools.

A third area I’ve seen is tang coming through the handle during heavy use, again this is either due to poor handle to tang fit, or weak handle material.

So to summarize great tang debate, In my opinion well made partial tangs are superior to well made full tangs. Because a full tang has to compensate for its weaknesses by being overly thick. Whereas a partial tangs only weakness is if its poorly made.

I have found these quote's for master smith Wayne Goddard’s book $50 knife shop.

" another factor to consider is the fact that the narrow-tang knife is a sealed unit compared to the slab handles affixed to a full tang"

"there is no doubt in my mind that there are fewer things that can go wrong with a properly constructed narrow tang knife"

"over the years I have had less trouble with narrow tang handles than with full tang versions. That’s why it's my opinion that when properly constructed the narrow tang is the strongest and most foolproof handle. it must be done right or it may not be any better than a full tang model. My opinion is also based on the most severe test of tang strength that I have been able to devise. I drove the point of a knife through a 2x4 board by pounding the pommel cap with a 4 pound hammer. The knife had a wire Damascus blade, micarta handle with a steel guard and pommel cap. The properly constructed narrow tang will withstand this type of abuse. I’d never try it with a slab handle full tang knife" Wayne Goddard $50 knife shop

[Shinken]

I will do some research about carbon and stainless steel properties and that is another often mislead area of tool making and will post in this post

Just to bore you more

Stainless Verses Carbon.

I would like to clear this up as i hear on forums so much false information in the stainless versus carbon debate.

Two things i would like to say, knife quality carbon steel is usually tougher and harder to break than stainless steel. Stainless steel usually has better wear resistance that carbon steel.

The above aren't always true however.

Now for the things i often hear that are false.

Carbon can get a sharper edge than stainless steel
Completely false

I believe this is often said because stainless may be harder to sharpen.

If you dont believe me send me some stainless and some carbon steel and i will sharpen them both so that you cannot tell the difference. It may be hardened or not hardened it matters not

They will still get sharp (although they may not stay that way long)

When loooking for a carbon steel the optimum amount is a about 1% to be tough enough for a knife and hold e decent edge. Start going more and the toughness decreases and edge holding becomes better. Unless it is a big knife i wouldnt want any less than 0.7% carbon and if it is a big knife id rather go down the hardness scale than carbon scale.

(these are only guidelines and different alloys affect the steel differently)

Stainless steel is called so if the chromium content is 14% or more. But other factors account for how stainless it will be (such as the carbon content, finish)

If your after a sal****er environment knife then go to a specialized knife forum and ask opinions there.

Hope this helps, any questions feel free to ask and if i am able i will help out as best i can.

[psudovegetarian]

Bore away Ash. Its 'not so' common sense.
There are 2 types of partial tang tho'. Lots of people still love their moras. I have a mora but it is a through tang No 1, not the partial tang plastic job. If the handle does fail on it I could easily fabricate a field expedient handle, You couldnt do that if the plastic one came adrift.

[Belfastman1958]

I myself prefer to use full tang blades. The reason for this is that if, for whatever reason, the handles do come away from the blade, then I still have something to grip onto and the knife can still be easily used until the handles get repaired. (The handles on my knives are riveted on, not glued.)

In my younger days I had a partial tang knife, and when the handle came off while out in the fields (cheaply made product rather than misuse), the knife was virtually impossible to use without having to hold onto some part of the blade.

So, despite all the tang arguments and preferences, it will be full tang for me, every time.

Alan.

[Shinken]

Thats fair mate, i add though that i find it nearly impossible to remove a handle from a well made partial tang even in the workshop using a hammer. and i don't think in the field i would be able to do it at all unless i put it in the fire.

So for me it is not a concern!

[MrEd]

i have one full tang and 3 stick tangs (2 mora's and 1 homemade job some one made for me) The homemade one im not so trusting of but the moras (normal clipper and small carving knife) i have abused and battoned with, no signs of failing yet and i have. i find the stick tang a more comfortable handle though if im honest
I suppose a knife is only as strong as its weekest part, so proper heat treatment and decent materials i suppose stick tangs should be just as strong. plenty of knives have failed both stick and full tang at areas other than the tang

When i first brought a decent knife i had no idea about tangs lol

[Belfastman1958]

Shinken, you're probably right. But, that one bad experience has left me with the perception that full tang is the knife for me.

Others will feel differently, and have their own reasons for chosing different knives.

It's "horses for courses" for each of us when it comes to any bit of kit.

Alan.

[JonnyP]

Originally Posted by Shinken

First up is using knives to make sparks from fire steels. Two things go wrong here. Firstly people refer to ferrocium rods as fire steels.

A fire steelis a piece of hard carbon steel that you strike flint against to produce sparks. if you have a carbon steel knife then your knife can be used instead of the steel to produce sparks with flint. This does not work with stainless knives.

Ferrocium or "Ferro" rods are alloyed metals which when scraped with something hard and sharp produce sparks. It does not matter what you use as long as it is hard with a square edge capable of shaving the rod. If you use your knife it does not matter if it is stainless or carbon. (the spine just needs for be hard and square)

Just to pick up on a couple of things..
Who cares if folk call a ferro rod a fire steel. I bet you have called a vaccum cleaner a hoover before. I bet you have heard people saying wicked, meaning thats good. (Thats proberbly not the best example to you though).. Its all part of everyone being different and being able to to use the English language how they want. So long they get the message across, who cares..

Also, I would not recommend anyone to use their knife to strike flint with. They would be hitting a rock with the blade facing themselves.

Isn't it all about quality, rather than what sort of tang..? I have all sorts of knife types and they all work OK.
If one did fail, it wouldn't be the end of the world, it would just be "note to self, do not buy that knife again" and lesson learnt.

Anyway, thats wicked man.. I am off to do some hoovering and have a play with me fire steel..

[Shinken]

Isn't it all about quality, rather than what sort of tang..? I have all sorts of knife types and they all work OK.
If one did fail, it wouldn't be the end of the world, it would just be "note to self, do not buy that knife again" and lesson learnt.

I think if you re-read the thread you will see that i mention quality a fair few times.

Who cares if folk call a ferro rod a fire steel. I bet you have called a vaccum cleaner a hoover before. I bet you have heard people saying wicked, meaning thats good. (Thats proberbly not the best example to you though).. Its all part of everyone being different and being able to to use the English language how they want. So long they get the message across, who cares..

It's not a big thing but it does lead to people thinking that a stainless knife cannot throw sparks from a ferro rod because they hear that they dont work on a firesteel. I am not picking on the word but making sure beginners get the tool they want to work how they want.

There are plenty of threads where people have replied to a post saying stainless knives won't throw sparks from a firesteel (which it won't) when the object they where referring to was a ferrocuim rod.

I call my ferro rod a firesteel too, but when we help beginners we have to be a little clearer. Thats why i started this thread. It can be confusing to someoene new to knives with all the misleading info about on the net, a lot of which comes from makers wanting there life to be easy when they make knives. In my opinion

[Bernie Garland]

Originally Posted by Shinken

It's not a big thing but it does lead to people thinking that a It can be confusing to someoene new to knives with all the misleading info about on the net, a lot of which comes from makers wanting there life to be easy when they make knives. In my opinion

I'll make someone any knife stick or fulltang, never yet have i had 1 enquiry for a stick tang,so its not to make my life easy

Its what customers want

Bernie