Does anyone know

[Gray]

I recently overheard the Group Scout Leader telling a group of scouts that if they had a member of there team who was suffering from exposure/hypothermia, they sould place the subject in a survival bag...HEAD FIRST. I strongly objected to the information and was told that the latest guide lines dictate this to be true.

I responded by telling him, if I was to suffer from hypothermia and I woke up in an orange bin bag, head first, his feet wouldnt touch the floor. (providing I did wake up of course)

Can anyone enlighten me

[SimonM]

That was always the way they were intended to be used IIRC, at least for a conscious cas.

Sit on rucksac (insulation) cut a vent at the top (need to breathe!) and pull it over you.

Instant shelter from the elements.

Simon

[sapper]

He's right.The reason being if you go in feet first all the body heat you have left will escape out of the top.What he should have said is that you also cut the corner off so that the casualty doesn't suffocate.

[sapper]

Sorry slow typing.

[Gray]

Haha looks like I'll be apologising next week, bastards, lol.
Thanks for clearing that up fellas, I was always told the opposite.

[spiritofold]

Never knew that, then i've never had cause to use a survival bag before. Interesting bit of info though! :)

[Gray]

Never knew that, then i've never had cause to use a survival bag before. Interesting bit of info though! :)

Its funny isnt, I was always told to put the person in a sleeping bag, in a survival bag, preferably with another person.

You learn something every day

[JonnyP]

New one on me too.. You would certainly need some vents though..
Best to stay warm in the first place though me thinks...

[SimonM]

Its funny isnt, I was always told to put the person in a sleeping bag, in a survival bag, preferably with another person.

You learn something every day

I think the solution mentioned first is something you do to self treat, when alone, whereas the other method is if in a group.

To be honest i have been told both methods, but rely on prevention not cure with hypothermia.

Simon

[Gray]

Great info Si,cheers

[eds]

head first into bag is the recommended method - much warmer. However do NOT forget to cut a small piece of the corner off to allow ventilation.

[DKW]

Might be a bit off, but here goes:
Whats the point of carrying an orange binbag with you?
you have your other gear: Sleepingbag, tarp, clothing, firelightingkit and whatnot.
If its because you have lost it, it would mean that you have lost your backpack aswell. The binbag would be in the backpack wouldn't it?

I honestly do not see the grand scheme in such a bag, is there something i have missed?

[Bernie Garland]

Might be a bit off, but here goes:
Whats the point of carrying an orange binbag with you?
you have your other gear: Sleepingbag, tarp, clothing, firelightingkit and whatnot.
If its because you have lost it, it would mean that you have lost your backpack aswell. The binbag would be in the backpack wouldn't it?

I honestly do not see the grand scheme in such a bag, is there something i have missed?

Very good point:)

[Barn Owl]

Might be a bit off, but here goes:
Whats the point of carrying an orange binbag with you?
you have your other gear: Sleepingbag, tarp, clothing, firelightingkit and whatnot.
If its because you have lost it, it would mean that you have lost your backpack aswell. The binbag would be in the backpack wouldn't it?

I honestly do not see the grand scheme in such a bag, is there something i have missed?

I always took it to mean an emergency shelter if out on the hills for the day without other sleeping gear.
That's all I carried for a few years ago,now have a cheap nylon bivi for daysac.

[Satan]

Never under any circumstances put someone into one of those bags head first, even with ventilation holes cut into it, if their head is in there the breath will condense and make the casualty damp thereby losing any heat which is left. Put them into a sleeping bag if one is available or wrap them in a survival blanket, or space blanket, then put them into the bag FEET FIRST and push in dry grass, spare clothing, or anything else you can find to insulate and warm, the bag only stops wind and weather and has no heat retention. Cover the head with a hat or a sock or wrap up in a towel or shemagh. When that's done get a fire going, and heat some water for a brew or even just the warm water to get heat into the body as hypothermia usually means the warm blood has reduced to the outer levels of the body so reduced circulation. Body heat is good so if you can get someone in beside them all the better but that would depend on their size. Remember lots of layers and get some heat in the shape of a fire and hot drink. Don't forget to call 999 this is a very dangerous condition get the professionals out with the right gear to treat.

[Cairodel]

The "ventilation" hole in the end of the bag (I think somebody mentioned
this before) should be big enough for the person's head to exit from... :icon_hang
Thereby reducing condensification (sic), possibility of suffocation, and
allowing foul odours to exit from the "big end".... (possible fire-starter..:o)

[IntrepidStu]

Never under any circumstances put someone into one of those bags head first, even with ventilation holes cut into it, if their head is in there the breath will condense and make the casualty damp thereby losing any heat which is left. Put them into a sleeping bag if one is available or wrap them in a survival blanket, or space blanket, then put them into the bag FEET FIRST and push in dry grass, spare clothing, or anything else you can find to insulate and warm, the bag only stops wind and weather and has no heat retention. Cover the head with a hat or a sock or wrap up in a towel or shemagh. When that's done get a fire going, and heat some water for a brew or even just the warm water to get heat into the body as hypothermia usually means the warm blood has reduced to the outer levels of the body so reduced circulation. Body heat is good so if you can get someone in beside them all the better but that would depend on their size. Remember lots of layers and get some heat in the shape of a fire and hot drink. Don't forget to call 999 this is a very dangerous condition get the professionals out with the right gear to treat.

Ive read in medical books that you should NOT warm the patient with a fire. You must use only a sleeping bag or similar means

[spiritofold]

Warm fluid is one of the ways to go, get the core temperature back to something like normal.

[Barn Owl]

Regarding fire,it's ok to warm them by the fire if they're wrapped up and with someone.
It's the loss of co-ordination and feeling at extremeties that could cause them to be burnt I believe.(not an expert though).

[eds]

go try it.

Head first and vent is much warmer. Even works with causalties down caves until the CasBag arrives. In the grand scheme of thins a little warm condensation results in less cooling than the head and therefore the chest/core area been closer tot the opening. And a plastic bag will offer a suprising degree of thermal insulation not just windproofing. Plast iis a very poor thermal conductor so it inhibits the interface between the body and the cooler environment.

If you go feet first your head is still open to a draught.

Do not heat with fire if they have hypothermial, gradual rewarming is needed - Ok if we clothed and only mildly hypothermic. And sugars. One of the main issues of hypothermia is the delpeted blood sugar prevents the body warming itself. It can even lead to hypoglycimia in non diabetic casualties.

This really for mild to low level moderate hypothermia for sever it is a bag and grab (idealy air lift) with re-warming to be done it hospital. Trying to rewarm a sever hypothermia patient on the hills can kill them.

Moderate & sever patients also require very carefull handling as jolting and banging can cause ventricular fibrillation, as will rapid rush of wamer blood to the core- such as form applying heat pads to legs, arms etc. Place thes on chest or arm pits to warm the core area so that the blood gradually warms here first.

Getting into a bag with a hypothermic (as opposed to jsut cold) person is not advised by MR in this countty - the reason: you end up with 2 hypothermic/very chilled casualties. One hypothermic person with soon cool the body of another ok person.

[John Fenna]

In my experience no matter how damp with condensation you get in a survival bag you also get warm due to the lack of wind chill.
I have tried sleeping in the blessed things but have always got too hot - and damp!
Blizzard bags are much better all round!
I carry a survival bag as they are light cheap and effective when you have no other shelter or as an extra layer when the shelter you have proves inadeqate in the conditions you find yourself in.
From "real life experience" they work - but are the "basic" option, not the best!

[eds]

I'd say they are the minimum to carry.

I normal have one plus a space blanket (plus space blanekt in first aid kit). I also often carry a Kisu plus I've got a blizzard bag. Really depends on where I'm going.

For a an afternoon stroll somewhere popular with easy access - bag and blanket.
Further afield Kisu - useful for brew breaks as well. And winter climbing/serious walking blizard bag (though I'll leave the poly bag then).